Discussion in 'Capri Chit Chat' started by Lee price, 30 June 2015.
3.0s at Kgf
What are your thoughts
Seat belts are wrong and at an angle
I think you're way off the mark there. This car has just left the ownership of a long standing member on here.
It's probably one of the best, if not the best 3.0S in the country.
The seat belts are at the wrong angle and bolted to far forward for that year of mk3 Capri.
Sounds like there is something not quite right here. I've noticed a few anomalies in this car that could dictate a bit of investigation, especially if 27k is the asking price:
Front suspension top plates do not look original....look at the large creases down the inner wing on the drivers side. These look like modified repair plates. Original plates do not have these gaps and fit tightly to the inner wing. The angle where these kick up towards the wing hanging rail doesn't look quite right either.
A long time ago on the thread, there was a picture of the underside/gearbox tunnel. There was clearly a square gear lever hole. This indicates a type 9 gearbox shell, so not a 3.0S shell.
Then there is the seat belt mounting point. Once again, consistent with a later car.
Hate to say it, but I think these details would have to be investigated and verified before laying out this amount. :boxedin:/>
Did the early ones not have the anchor bar at the base like my laser has?
But jeeeze it is lovely!
I learnt the hard way on mine. Bought nos seat belts including the bar that mounts at two points, only to find my car only had a single mounting point further back! Bugger!
Agree, it is a lovely looking car and much admired.
Might want to have a rethink about that statement!
You learn something new... I never knew about the seatbelts, what year did that change?
Agreed unfair for someone to outlay 28k on this if it isn't a genuine Three litre shell. Even if it was a Laser or something and had been strengthened to be like a v6 shell it would be worth a lot in that condition, but it should be sold as such.
The first part of my statement was in response to the original post prior to it being edited, hinting that this was/could be a reshelled Laser.
Where as I'm fully aware this car is not standard and probably not one for the purists, the second part of my statement is based on what I have seen with my own eyes. This IMO is the nicest, cleanest and most highly detailed Capri I have laid eyes on.
Also in the years I've known this car, I've only ever heard people singing its praises and not once heard anyone question it's provenance.
Therefore my non-anorak wearing asumption is, it's a genuine 3.0S.
This will be my one and only statement on the sale of my car.it was purchased as a genuine car with the v5 stating what it was.the only significant metalwork I ever done was the strut top replacements as the ones on it were bubbling up and the rear ns arch had a small hole that was welded up.the os door and bonnet were also replaced in my ownership.all this can be seen in my members cars thread.I had and still have no reason to suspect it had been reshelled.ive only ever recieved praise and admiration for the car when it was shown.this is the 1st time I've ever heard of the seatbelts being wrong.the car was sold to kgf,was properly inspected at time of sale and a deal done ,what the cars history prior to my ownership is or was I can only go on what I was told at time of when i purchased it and from what ive seen for myself.I have not known the car for the last 35 odd years .they have put a huge mark up on it over what i recieved for it but that's there buisiness.
End of conversation for me
I think there is a reasonable chance given the anomalies noticed this is not the original shell for this car, but any prospective purchaser would have to have this checked for themselves and be sure they are happy with this if this turns out to be the case. I never noticed the seat belts before, but there it is and certainly raises a question.
If it was reshelled, it would have been done before the previous owner acquired it....and the practice was rife in the past and was seen as a legitimate way of saving a car. You can't, however, question the amount of time and money that has been spent to bring this car up to the standard it is. In that respect, it's a fantastic car and one I think most would be happy to have in their garage.
As the prices of these cars has risen, I do believe that provenance will start to become increasingly important, however. If I were spending not for short of 28k on a 3.0s (and lets face it, this exceeds by quite a margin the sale prices of cars we have seen sold recently), I would want to know exactly what I'm getting and be happy with the price.
Like it or not, some things are very much valued on them being what they say they are.
Me personally, there are enough doubts that would make me want to dig a little deeper, especially at that price.
I never knew that. Was it just the bolt / screw being in a different places on the inner sill? When did it change?
sorry I had put post but I may have listed in error and been thinking about another car
Just out of curiosity where's the build thread gone.?
Its in the gold members cars where its been for the last two years
Beautiful car Si, always enjoyed admiring it! Enjoy spending the cash my friend, you earned it with the hours you put into her
No one is questioning if it's a nice car or not. As let's be honest it certainly looks it from what I've seen.
In answer to that question ( and someone may correct me on this ) it was when the first 2.8 I came out that the seat belts then became equipped with the slide runner. Those with late cars will know what this is. It allows the seat belt to slide along the lower. I then think all later cars were standardised with this. The runner is bolted to the inner sill at the front and a screw locates it at the rear. Earlier cars have the large bolt directly at the bottom line of the B post. So the belt is straight. This to me Is clearly the later type. This either means it's had new inner and outer sills ( as to replace the inners and not outers is impossible ) which the previous owner said it hadn't had any major bodywork, or it's a later shell. I've replaced enough inner sills on capris to know 100% this is a fact. In fact I've used later genuine ford inner sills on a mk3 3.0.S we recently restored and had to move the anchor fixing point for the seat belts further back. The other thing is if you look you will notice any rear passengers exiting the car are likely to trip on them and fall out the car rather than get out.bwe know ford design was a bit slapdash but ? I have a 1978 mk2 3.0.S. And two 1979 mk3 3.0.S's and all three cars have the anchors at the line of the B post.
There are so many other tell tail signs and if I was looking at the car in depth I am 99.9% certain I could tell if it's not a V6 shell. Or a later one. Most people are not aware that the V6 shells had an extra member welded inside the rear chassis legs. If ever in doubt pop the lower rear seat out. Pull out the black oval plugs from the floor and stick finger inside chassis leg. You can feel the lip of the inner box section. Also you can see spot welds from underside. But not if plastered in under seal or stobechip.
Unfortunately I've personally had the displeasure of having to tell people ( on more than one occasion ) that what they think they have purchased, they haven't. If you see my point. It's not a nice thing to do and clearly not nice for the owner when they find there car isn't genuine.
Unfortunately this brings that time old question as mentioned by others. If spending that sort of money. Surely YOU would want to know it's a genuine bodied car. Not a re shell into something else because we all know it WILL have a negative affect on a cars value. If the car has been sold to someone for 28k and it isn't a genuine car there could be all sorts of problems if this proves to be the point. Let's face it. If you purchased it from a reputable classic dealer ( which I believe KGF are ) you'd be pissed right !! Take it back etc etc. and so it would go on. As I know I would. Unfortunately it doesn't matter how nice it is if it's not in its original shell it's not worth 28k. Disagree ??
They are as stated. Not points about this particular car because I've not inspected it in that detail. Let's be honest you wouldn't go to a show and start poking about at any particular car. I wouldn't be happy if someone did it to mine.
They are just factual points I've pointed out to answer questions. I don't understand why this raises an issue.
The idea is not to upset any individual but again, as stated. If it's not its original shell I find it hard to believe anyone would be willing to part with 28k for a non original car. Again, not pointing at any car again as stated but it's just facts.
Other people have raised the questions in general and commented on the price against originality. I gave simply answered them. Not pointed any fingers or accused anyone of any wrong doing.
don't know who deleted your post Stuart, but I have re-instated it ...
I have a great fondness for this Capri myself, and the amount of work put into it ...
the points you have are only accurate, and in the end all aspects of being able to identify different parts and forms on the Capri shell can only be good for owners and prospective buyers.
I would hope that the 'team' discuss any future action on this topic before cutting any more posts ...
Mate, read the amended post again. He removed the post because he was thinking of another car. An innocent mistake so it was corrected in all innocence too. I take it if you had read the original post you would totally understand why it was edited. Nothing underhanded whatsoever. Not a Joke at all. Your point about a forum is correct but when a genuine mistake or error is posted then surely the originator has the right to edit it ? Why is the edit function there then ? The bit I don't get is, and this is not a pop at you directly, is that this thread about CAP30S' car has been on here for years and in every magazine under the sun - and not one single person ever has raised these questions before when there was the opportunity. So why is it happening now eh ? Is it because of the asking price ? If so that should have nothing to do with it - even if was a quid the same question should be asked ? Is it because nobody read the post before ? Be nice if somebody could just justify why this has all started all of a sudden ?
Because quite simply a concerned and genuine point has been raised about the value of the car in light of details questioning its originality. As you should surely know we restore classic fords for a living and again, FACT is that there are questions regarding the cars originality. As stated a FACT. the inner sill seat belt anchorage points are in the wrong place as I've detailed and explained in the post. Not accused anyone of any wrong doings or underhanded dealings. But again. I am sure you would want to be 100% certain a car was genuine at this price level.
I've pointed out that I have been in the position to have to inform people on inspections there car is not what they think.
I fail to see the wrong doing in trying to help people in not making bad choices on financial bases.
£28k for it??? It's s beautiful car no question but it has aftermarket wheels for starters doesn't it?
I find with all of my classics that originality commands the top money and this car is several thousand above that stunning black low mileage 3.0S that sold at auction recently
Like I said, before anyone starts whinging......it's a beautiful car but even if the seat belts etc etc were correct, in my opinion (which is an opinion!) it's way overpriced
Cant believe some people on this forum, I have sat along side simon and his car at shows for some time now and he has received nothing but praise for what he has done with it, and yet the same people who praised it are on here slating it. this scene really does beggar belief sometimes. im done with it!
I for one am slightly disappointed ...
I have had a great fondness of the Capri, and have spoken to Si in the past, nice guy ...
he carried out a lot of work out of interest and care for the car, and he documented a hell of a lot in his extremely interesting build thread .
he has decided to sell, he feels a fair price paid - good, seller happy / buyer happy by the sound of it ...
the person/organisation who bought it has since put it up for sale and made a killing .. that has got buggeraw to do with Simon.
any car is only worth what a buyer will pay for it ... 2800 or 28000 for any car is a detail between buyer and seller, it should have no impact or cause for concern to anyone else
I get the bits about originality - and I have seen some ugly original cars, and I also like modified cars too ... but at time of sale, the price is between only them concerned.
I don't think the tones on here are good for us, the forum or the people involved ...
Thank god someone else thinks the same. It's fast becoming like a platform for jealousy and bitching. If you aren't buying it, don't whine about the price. If you aren't buying the car, don't worry about its provenance. Still can't believe any of you who are generously volunteering this so called helpful information didn't post your concerns in Simons build thread - probably because half of you haven't even looked at it and followed its progress - one of you didn't even know where the thread was ! . Let the person buying the car worry about it. All you have done is tainted Simons ownership of the car and probably tainted the whole experience for him. Shame.
I don't think anyone is jealous here. No one has slagged off the car. I think we can all agree that simon has done wonders with this car and it is a fantastic car. I've not seen anyone at all ever say anything to the contrary.
Here's is where I have issue. As long as the car was Simons and he was happy with it, why say anything? I'm absolutely convinced he knew exactly what he had, which is fine, while exactly 'what' he had was his business, genuine 3.0 shell or otherwise. Given the amount of work he has done on it, I'm sure he knows it inside out. The car is and always will be, given good care, superb. I've long had a suspicion that there is a chance this could have been a later shell and the seat belt position just pushes this over to the point where the cars provenance should probably be investigated. This has nothing to do with jealousy, slagging the car or being two faced about this. This is based on fact.
As far as letting the new owner worry about it, well, that's uncharitable at best. I'd be a little miffed if I bought a car on the basis that it was a genuine shelled car only to find out there was a question mark over it's provenance and no one said anything. I think you may take a different view if the police turned up on your door step and said 'sorry, your car has a question over it's ID, we are taking it'....and the guy who sold you the car said 'oh, I'll let the new owner worry about that' as he was having a pint down the pub with his mates. That would be just fine then in your book.
When a car is advertised at a price some margin above the top prices paid for superb cars, suddenly provenance does become important, as so may things in this world are valued (rightly or wrongly) on them being what the preport to be. This has nothing to do with Simon (the car was around for a long time before he got it) , but the dealer should be able to verify what they have is 100% if they are going to ask for this sort of money. It really does take 3.0S capris to a new level and if sold at near this price, Simon should take pride in the fact that he has taken an also ran car and made it one worth this amount.
I'm also not saying, if reshelled, the car is worthless. Far from it, it's worth a considerable amount in my view. Just look at it. It's a thing of beauty!
I've heard a rumor it's been sold now, so I'm not sure there is much more to say on this, only to hope the new owner enjoys the car and is over the moon with his purchase.
^^^ What Vernon said, 100%.
And what Stuart says too.
Seconded, too many nut measuring w@nkers. Love the way they only post in topics like this too.
In before thread gets moderated/deleted/locked by the Thought Police :busted_cop:
It may be nut measuring to you, but when you are spending this amount on a car that has a question mark over it, I don't see the problem. If this all helps someone tell the difference between a 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder shell and buy what they think they are buying, then surely this is what forums are for?
No one has slated the car other than pointing out the obvious.
If there can be no sensible debate based on fact and people being referred to as nut measuring w@nkers, I'm off.
I fully agree with what Vernon and Stuart say. The car is Beautiful but isn't 100% correct and that is FACT. Simon has done a wonderful job with the car but for me if I was spending top money on any capri it would need to be 110% correct.
How many of you have been out checking thier seatbelt mounts lol,
I checked mine!!
This was at least one of my most favourite Capris in the world when I first met it almost five years ago, and still is - It's kept that standing in my mind because of the care Si gave it, and the judicious mods he's done to it for his personal tastes. Since then, it's been my exemplar of fastidious car care - But last year, I got a ride in it (it's never been a trailer queen) and can say, without exaggerating, that ride has never been outdone by any other Capri. It's one hell of a fun driving car. I've only ever looked at the car "as it sat" and in context with its owner, who has always been a solid good man and an appropriately respected member here (and always thought what a good match they were)- never based any of my appreciation for it based on its history or originality. As much as I like the car, I'm not sure I could justify paying the current asking price, but someone might, and their satisfaction might depend on their priority for pure originality, might not. Nobody was more surprised than me to see that Si had parted with it. Not to criticize anything said here at all, but right now I'm really more concerned with his memories of ownership and of his time spent with us than I am about the price or history of the car. How many of us have taken inspiration over the years, from the car or from the owner himself? If that were the measure, they could double the price. My hat is off to Mr. Hoar - regardless of anything else, without his dedication to the car (and to us), we'd not be reading any of this.
Checking mine at the weekend! Mines a late 81 car but I'm pretty sure mine are further forward, I've certainly got the bar instead of just the bolt.... 'Gulp'
100% agree. Simons was one of the first threads I saw on here and yes, it was an inspiration. I have copied one or two bits too ! I just hope that like I said previously, all these unnecessary comments about the car now have not ruined the passion he had for it - or now for Capris in general. I actually know a secret about one car that was on here from a while back but I have never been compelled to air my view or concern as it has absolutely nothing to do with me. What I am bloody annoyed about though is he flogged it before he gave me a ride in it !!!! Good luck Si !!
Any one on here buy it ?
a bit of useless information, 99.9% of mk1 rs escorts are reshelled!
Well. If that comment is aimed at me ( not saying it is ) then so be it. I apologise for just stating facts about the Capri in general. Not any particular car as I have mentioned several times now. I just know that the type of clientele we deal with are very very particular about a cars originality. And again, I am 100% sure all the opinionated comments made here would also want to know a cars originality at this price level.
Exactly why I stated no criticism of the comments made - I stand by my view, but Stuart's is unquestionably well-founded. He's among the few on here who can routinely match the quality of this car. If originality and provenance are important to a buyer, so be it, that's their own priority and it has its place, often in his corner of the trade. I value Stu's posts and information very highly, even when as in this instance, my personal thoughts are otherwise.
As for the considerations of the next buyer, he's likely especially correct. At the price Kgf has given it, I think it's beyond someone buying it as an investment, expecting it to appreciate much. They'd have to buy it from appreciation of the car, and if they didn't know Si...
Gentleman perhaps the time has come to draw a line under this topic .
As now its become more of an issue between people than it is about the car .
The car is no longer in the possession of the forum member it has been sold .
There is defiantly a lot history with the car prior to that member buying the car .
How much and what happened perhaps we will never know?
The evidence is there to see if you know where to look......
Please lets not forget we are very lucky to have some of the top capri knowledge people In the world on the forum and I really think we cannot afford to loose them over this topic .
So lets lock it
I am not sure that closing the thread is such a good idea .. to me here now, it looks like there are those sniping at the fact the car made money!
their cars don't make money, and they are not happy!
me personally ... I don't like Capris and maintain my interest in it to make money, I am not interested in building and selling to make money .. the guys that are trading to make 'that big buck' are not enthusiasts, they are speculators, so damn them ...
build a good one, make sure it is pretty and solid, and if people fight to buy it, so be it ... or just build yourself a Capri as you want it, maintain it, and enjoy it - that's what I want ... If people see it applaud it, even offer to buy it - fine.. that is the owners business, and people who don't go out to buy are in no position to comment ..
maybe one day when they decide to sell their Capri, and want a good price, they will allow people to look, test, and check out in public, and maybe compare to a really nice looking example that was sold a few months ago, but missed ... hmm
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