Hi guys Has anyone ever fitted an x pipe or h pipe cross over to their v6 exhaust? I've been doing some reading around the subject and wonder if anyone has any experience? I'm interested in benefits to engine torque, power, exhaust note and volume? Thanks guys Jon
I believe it helps with evening out pressures and scavenging effects....but sadly I can't help much, my 24v runs on a single exit system!
I've only experience with modified BMW S14 4cyl and S54 6cyl M3 engines that both have superior exhaust header/manifold design and x-pipes under the front floor. BMW Motorsport designed them over the std production range, and these are the parts maintained in their Group N & A catalogue - i'd take reassurance from this alone. I can't see any negatives and if i wanted a more modified look to my car wouldn't have hesitated to fabricate the X to add to the tubular manifolds. May make gearbox removal a bit trickier on a Vee engine?
All good points and I'm planning on some flanged or maybe v band clamps so the section can be removed for gear box or prop removal. I'm planning on adding a couple of cheap import silencers immediately after the down pipes to act as resonators, apparently the glass pack dissapears quickly making them less silencer and more resonator. Hopefully this will reduce the boom at cruising speeds I used to get without my decibel inserts but give me the power back that they cost. After the resonators I'm planning an x or h pipe cross over but haven't decided which. Longer term the whole exhaust will be stainless but I'll start with the front and then the rear silencer, I think I can get a straight through 4"x14" glass pack in there in place of the current 3"x10". I'm gonna stainless mig it, which will make some people sick but how often do you admire the tig welding in yer middle box? Longer term I want to be able to drive out of the garage before 10am on the weekend without worrying about annoying the neighbours. Thanks for your reply. Jon
In my experience you will be disappointed with the results if your planning on the straight though glass pack mufflers reducing the resonating boom at cruising speeds. I had a straight though glass pack as a center muffler and the resonate booming at cruising speeds was awful to say the least. I got rid of it by fitting a 3 chamber muffler. No resonating boom now and a joy to drive period!!! But I'm at the stage in life that I really don't like a noisey car at all. So I have been doing a bit of experimenting on my exhaust purely for noise control. I was really impressed with the 3 chamber muffler when I fitted it to the center section, that I fitted a 3 chamber muffler to the rear as well. But unfortunately that was a fail as the db went up. db scale on left, rpm at the bottom. The car is still pleasant to drive from the inside but far too loud on the outside for my liking. My car runs a 2.5" single system, so now I'm looking at maybe the Turbo type of muffler may be a better choice for making it quieter. Also looking at reducing the size of the pipe. I've been looking at some of the factory BMW and Nissan exhaust systems and they seem to run quite small diameter pipes, yet still make good power. So the thought now is to run smaller pipes(maybe 1.75") to 2 center Turbo type mufflers and then collect to a single 2"-2.25" pipe to rear Turbo type muffler. I have no doubt that it will cost some HP, especially at top end power, but I really don't care so much now a days.
Thanks for the as always thoroughly thought out and researched response stroker. My original system fell off 15 years ago and I've run a 2" twin capri club system ever since. When first fitted I couldn't drive the car as the two straight through silencers in each bank did virtually nothing, it was a deep booming sound at idle that made every one look and at cruising speeds you needed ear defenders. I fitted slip in decibel incerts from demon tweaks in the tail pipes and the in cabin boom was gone immediately and the idle volume dropped and rose in pitch. At the time I was delighted at the improvement but now would like a further reduction in noise and to release any horses held back by the inserts. When I last did any serious work on the car I added a couple of inches of pipe to the ns over axle section because it used to get banged on speed bumps when I carried passengers but also welded the decibel inserts in to the rear silencers in order to hold the perforated steel core in place as its falling apart. In fact I question how much absorbtion material is even left in my exhaust. So I short it's time for an exhaust refurb and I'm looking at my options. I'm also fascinated by how a 2.8 v6 will sound with a cross over twin system. The current idle is quite unique with its choppy note, essentially two engines competing to be heard, a cross over should result in an even exhaust note more akin to a modern v8....... Maybe. Jon.
It's just a personal thing but I don't like the sound of any 6 cylinder with completely separate twin pipe systems. I used to run my Capri Essex V6 with a single system(3") and also my Sierra(2.5"). I believe the cross over or H section will definitely help in evening out the exhaust tone. I doubt there will be any noticeable difference in performance with fitting a crossover. When it comes to the exhaust, the 2.8 motor does seem to respond quite well to header primary length, short for top end performance, long for bottom end performance, and difference in performance is quite noticeable.
We've fabbed and replaced silencing with stainless wire in the Mig with neat results, with good bend and cuts you'll be fine. Huge fan of flap discs in grinder and the rotary these days, they help alleviate the chore of working with stainless. Yes, Tig's do give an inferiority complex, and it is the next level. But 'In period' i can't remember scrutinizing the welds on my Cherry Bombs, Ears, Peco's or Janspeeds for that matter . . .
hi I have fitted a balance pipe between the banks just under the tail of the gear box I have a 3.2 with a camm shaft I cant remember what it is but of a racy nature I used to get back fires pops and a very harsh sounding exhaust note but now get a very even note with no pops or bangs lol sounds like a quiet TVR
Thanks for that input mate, I've got some custom silencers made in 304 stainless now. They are massive and literally the biggest I can fit without compromising ground clearance. I've taken strokers advice and compromised on middle box flow by adding a ressinator chamber / baffle to bring noise down. I'm yet to bud the system, will likely be next winter. Did you do a before and after to see how much of a difference the cross over pipe made to performance? Or were you mostly interested in its note? Cheers Jon
no I haven't done a comparison of power I honestly don't remember feeling any difference but for me was definitely a great improvement on exhaust note
Funny, I always liked my exhaust note but when I analysed it, I realised its quite harsh and load with an annoying idle. I'm quite excited about how it will sound when the banks are balanced. Thanks for the input.
I know from experience, a 2.8i Granada, because of a single exit system sounds better than a 2.8i Capri, but l have a 3.0 Capri and a few Savages, all running twin systems and they sound brilliant. I do have one car on a stainless steel system and that sounds crap, it's quiet a tinny sound, shame it I'll never need replacing!! I will be very interested in your results. I always remember following my mates 3.0 Ghia and it always seemed to condensate out of the NS silencer more than the OS and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, strange what you remember. My Mk1 3.0 GT XLR was ran without middle silencers to a rear box, that did sound good !!!
a very good friend of mine did this .. it was a Capri with a 3.6 RV8 (wee bit worked) Mercedes compressor .. back then it sounded absolutely lovely and went rather well ..
Well as some of you know I've been quite poorly of late and the diagnosis got worse after a biopsy. I'm in the throws of some pretty nasty treatment cycles now which mean I can't work. However not all days are bad and I do get some workshop time every so often, gotta take it easy but I have managed some progress on my exhaust. I intend to work out how to post images from my phone soon and will bore you all with my progress. Currently I have built (but only tack welded) the full passenger side system including long tube headers. The headers are 1 5/8" and run about 28" in to a 2" collector, v band and then flexy joint. At this point I've added a cross over under the prop and then the biggest custom chambered silencer I can fit under the car (it's massive) with a v band each side. The exhaust finishes in a wire wool packed 4" x 14" straight through silencer, if too loud I'll add decibel inserts here. All parts are 304 stainless, bends are all bandrel dairy quality items and all joints are tigged. I bought a Chinese dc tig set and have taught myself how to use it firstly by building a system for my mate last year on his cossy killing old school volvo and now my system. Biggest snag I'm having are nerve issues in my hands caused by treatment, which makes tig incredibly frustrating but I'm not gonna let it beat me. Jonny
Sorry to hear you've been ailing, glad you're still making progress. Just stop long enough to ensure you get equal care. What's done looks right tidy.
You are all absolutely right and I really appreciate your kind words. It's all about not over doing it I've found, as the mental health benefits associated with working on the capri versus to physical exhaustion it can cause. I've got the ballance sussed at the moment and hung the drivers silencers today. Can anyone give me any fool proof pointers on posting images? Jonny.
first off .. Keep you Safe Jonny.. then as far as uploading photos.. if you have them on your computer, at a nominal size of around 2mB.... I tend to keep mine at 1500x1000 (3:2 ratio), then just write your script, and while doing so, note the buttons bottom right.. In particular 'Upload a File' .. press that, and navigate to your pictures file location.. select the pics of your choice.. they will stack up under your post text.. so put the cursor where you want the photos to be, and hit the button 'Full Image' if you do that with the lead 'all images' then all is good.. but you can always write the story and insert pics as you go..
Thanks Clockwork but the snag for me is I'm 100% mobile phone and no pc. You've suggested a photo host before, I previously used photo bucket but couldn't remember how to do that now if I'm honest. I recall there being many links to a photo, how do you know which one to use? Cheers Jonny
Thanks Clockwork but the snag for me is I'm 100% mobile phone and no pc. You've suggested a photo host before, I previously used photo bucket but couldn't remember how to do that now if I'm honest. I recall there being many links to a photo, how do you know which one to use? Cheers Jonny
The image appeared in your post, was a thumbnail.. So using edit function, opened the post and picked a cursor position, then hit the ‘Full Image’ button.. in this post got the code usually associated with a picture, but none showing!! You’re getting there!! ps.. did this on my phone !!
Post Image I use There’s generally about 6 codes available for various uses.. On here.. ‘Hot Link For Forums’! write a bit, copy and paste the code, write a bit more.. always easier if you cursor return after your text, and after inserting the code ..
In no particular order. The drivers side mid box has ended up 10mm lower than the passenger side and slightly tipped to one side. I think I can bend the hanger to compensate but have to be careful not to throw everything else out! post image online The garage will be quiet now for a few weeks as I have further treatments to endure but I've had a great few days on it. Need to build the drivers side manifold / headers next and attach it to the system when once a few more 3" 45 elbows turn up. This is gonna be the hardest part as there is loads of stuff in the way. I'm thinking of bucking the trend on tail pipes too, my old system had straight, slightly up swept and slash cut polished 2" stainless. But I'm leaning towards this, Thoughts? Jonny
A few hours have been spent in the garage lately, short stints to avoid over doing it and progress has been made on the drivers side header. It's now fully tacked from head to merge collector and I can confirm that making the drivers side has been a right nightmare. I've ended up with 2 compound bends to get around the steering column and oil cooler and it can only be fitted from underneath when the car is at least a foot off the ground but it does fit. I'll post images when I take some, I Haven't had a chance because it's been so labour intensive getting it made! Cheers Jonny
Progress has been very slow but I've finally got the whole exhaust built and tacked together, it's ready for welding but I'm not likely to tackle that for a 2 weeks minimum now. Drivers side manifold was quite a challenge to be honest and pipe lengths are not equal as I'd wanted but that's kinda unimportant as they are siamese anyway. I've ended up with a general tolerance of within 1/2" between each side, it's more than I'd wanted but isn't to bad as long as the tail pipes look even. Do people have any opinions on the tail pipes? I've canvased many mates and the opinions are split 50:50. I really like the turn down but the car is 6" from a wall and I can't really see them from behind. It's something that could be altered anyway, so not catastrophic if it looks pants. Cheers chaps. Jonny
That's a lovely looking job Jon.. will be interesting to hear the difference between the standard manifold and those long runners ... I like your tailpipes straight out, but that wee slash-cut is neat .. when I got mine done, I asked the guys to recess them up a bit more ...
Thanks mate, I figured the bigger the section that could be removed the easier it would be to access prop, gearbox and clutch. So that dictated the positioning of the clamps. Cheers Jonny.
Really impressive what you have done here Jonny. Can't wait to see what you think of the improvement this makes. I do hope your treatments go well for you.
Drivers side 90% welded and I'm outa gas.... See you in a couple of weeks and thanks all for the kind words and invaluable input. Jonny
I just found an NOS crossover pipe in my spares at the old place. Can't post the pic from here, so next week when I get home. It will likely never get used.
Annoyingly my liver isn't up to treatment, so it's been deferred. So a little work shop time today. new baby name You'd be amazed how many times I had to sharpen the tungsten because of my hand tremors but I'm feeling pretty pleased with the progress today. Just the welding on the collector ends to finish now and then wrap. I've got some 304 stainless 16mm hex bar to make nuts to fit the headers as the 17mm nuts are a bit tight. Also I'm very much in two minds about supporting the headers at the bell housing, I can't hard fasten them due to thermal expansion issues but am concerned by the leverage potentially on them. I've been toying with rose joints or even a 1.5mm steel sheet link that will flex with expansion. Jonny.
Geez they are looking good!! I wouldn't be putting them on the car, I'd be hanging them on my lounge wall!!! I used cap screws for my headers due to not been able to use the hex nuts. My first hanger on my system is way back behind the first muffler and has lasted 6 years without sagging or cracking. But yes if you can, a extra support up by the gearbox would be a better option. What about making a type of slip ring to help with the expansion issues.
Thanks very much, don't zoom in on the welding but other than that I'm pretty chuffed. As with yours my first hangers are above/behind the main boxes just in front of the axle. As you suggest a slip style bushing arangment could work and I'm thinking on it, I've made the rods from the bell housing and have some ptfr in stock for the bush. Something like this maybe. As for the fasteners, there is no way the studs are coming out. I've tried but with the heads in the car it's risky, they are currently in good condition and if I fail to remove them they will likely be knackered. I'd like to use cap heads as fitment would be easier but the new nuts will do. Cheers Jon
Headers now wrapped and fitted to the car, what a pain the drivers side is to fit, even with 16mm nuts with built in spacers only the open end o the spanner can be used and the alternator needs to come off to get any torque on one! Annoyingly the heat of welding has made the drivers side warp and pull a little, it's effected clearance in places. It now runs too close to the oil cooler pipes but that can be sorted by rotating the cooler a bit anti clockwise and extending and rerouting the hoses. Also the pipes now run closer to the bulk head and floor than planned but I think the wrap will keep temps OK in these areas. Worst issue is that the coupling has become misaligned with the rest of the system, fortunately its only tacked and recoverable. Just gonna cost a few hours. They are now fitted but I Haven't got any photos of that yet. Jonny
Mid section fully welded together today, just need a brace welding in place of the piece of wood and a couple of o2 sensor bungs welding in for tuning. Jonny
Wow, after seeing that, I hesitate to post that promised pic of the original crossover pipe for our V6 models. But, a bit marred by years of shed storage, here it is, adding utterly no value to the thread....
If ford did it, then surely the purists can't complain about my car's originality. Amazing what we car enthusiasts have tucked away in our sheds. I found a giant wooden falice bottle opener in my garage just this week, I vaguely remember my wife banning if from the house when the kids were little but had totally forgotten about it. If there is enough interest, I'll add a photo of it.
wow seriously good work there!!, can't comment on crossovers as only got sportex system (was cheap when i first got it on the road), but, being the original boy racer i still love the sound, when attached to my rebuilt boa
Jonny outstanding workmanship i think there may be a few on here that would like this on their cars, window of opportunity, way up the costs and add a bit and see if anyone could be interested , make them in your spare time to order and Roberts your fathers brother mate
No way would anyone pay enough to even make it break even but a nice thought. Consumables alone would cost as much as a powerflow system, just check out the cost of a 2" all 304 ss v band clamp and I've used 6. Im not proposing I make a second exhaust but if say I did, you'd be looking at over 2000 pounds and my welding is shit And uncle Bob is my mums brother Jonny
The main silencers are now completed. TO DO LIST . Lambda bungs . A brace between main pipes . Over axle/rear box to fully weld . Main box mounts to adjust and paint . Sexual tail pipes to set equal and fit . Tame and photogaph the wooden member . Make and fit some heat shields . Listen to the chopless smooth idle.... No pictures in afraid but I will get some at some point. Fingers crossed I can get it complete before my final round of treatment in a week, so excited to hear it run. Jonny
well done so far, I'm sure if you can get that done your mind will be at ease as you head for the treatment.. sexual tailpipes as well now?
No pictures of the boxes but I just finished welding the back sections, as my sadly passed apprentice mentor used to say, "I had a rush of shit to the brain" . Mostly before pics but a couple showing the completed section. All photos were taken with the majestic rover 75 tourer in the background, a car that over the last 20k miles has consumed more suspension components than any other car ever! 2 rear springs 2 front springs 4 front drop links 2 front struts 2 front strut top bearings 1 Front wishbone 2 wish bone rear bushes 2 rear spings 3 lower rear arms! 2 upper arms 2 trailing arm bushes 2 rear drop links Not to mention 1 clutch 1 master cylinder 1 slave cylinder 4 discs and pads 4 tyres 1 alternator 1 Power steeting pump 1 under bonnet fuel pump 1 maf sensor (broken but not fixed) No wonder it was 200 pounds Lovely car mind. Jonny
A little more done today, lambda bosses fitted and a little spacer strengthener dog bone thing. Cleaned up the hangers and adjusted before welding and painting, my god mig is a pleasure after all that tigging, its soooo forgiving. The full system is now fitted and just awaits it's tailpipes. Not gonna lie pretty excited about hearing it run. So tomorrow if all is well, wheels on, heat shields made and fitted, down on its toes and its ready to go. No where's willy finds yet? Very excited Jonny.
So this happened Just need to weld the tailpipes on, gonna tack them and decide over time if turn downs are what I want but I think I do. The silencers will bed in and get louder with use but they are so much quieter than with the capri club/sportex system, even with decibel inserts! The sound at idle is glorious, a smooth deep pulsing burble/rumble. Sadly a video just doesn't do it any justice. Gonna clean up the garage, tack in the tail pipes and tomorrow I'll wash her and think about an mot. And the little brace clockwork, is to spread the pipes just a little to aid prop clearance of the silencer, they pulled in a touch when I welded them. Jonny.
This just in, I ran her for a good 45 minutes. Normally after 10 to 15 minutes the temperature gauge will get to the upper quarter and threaten to over heat but never actually cook. With the wrapped headers the temperature gauge never went beyond half way. Also the rad top hose is normally hard at operating temperature but now stays nice and squeezable. Tail pipes tacked in and must abmit I do like cheeky turn downs... Jonny.
most certainly concur, and I didn't think I would ... and I still like the Arty cross-brace, totally understand why its there, some folk would have just fitted a dod of flat-bar .. but you go and do something nice !! go on ya devil post the noise !!
Work of art, hang it on you living room wall, but Capris should have straight pipes coming out the rear, swept like that is ok on a 60s MK1 Cortina, not your Capri, just as per usual, my opinion, I'm still jealous of your skills.
Opinion gratefully received, processed and duly ignored . You are quite right though but despite an out wardly standard look my car hides many deviations from factory standard, some modern some old like upgraded brakes all around, altered suspension, early instrument cluster, wrong steering wheel, huge alterations to the engine internals and horror of horrors two tone paint when it left the factory in one shade! The tail pipes are only tacked for now, who knows I may even make a set of straight ones at some point and try them out but for now they turn down like a diesel Jonny
